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I noticed on the strother bows if they are out of time the cable rubs the center hub on the bottom cam right before reaching full draw. could this be what is causing this bump in the nock travel? Im betting Oldbuck didnt tune the bow. just tested it the way it come.
 

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Archery John Blaze said:
I would venture to say the bow is a 70 pound ,,,right hand,,,28 draw,,,all balck,,,serial #64,, and is in Connecticut while it's owner is in Florida,,but i'm not one to gossip.

original poster did make mention that the tuner is a well established in this field as well as being a top notch archer. in other owrds,,,he aint a ham and egger,,,he's tuned and set up tons of bows and did his share of kickin' "Edit" on the 3-d course and target shoots.

Good question as to what his bump is,,,,but it is probably whats causing this bow to need such a stout spine arrow in order to paper tune.

So that is why it is for sale last week? Because a "well established tuner" screwed it up just in time for oldbuck to "test" it... Wow, the story just keeps getting better - both the for sale story and the knock travel story... Keep it going guys and maybe you'll be nominated for an Oscar :???:
 

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-2xR- said:
[quote="Archery John Blaze":2tcpa45h]I would venture to say the bow is a 70 pound ,,,right hand,,,28 draw,,,all balck,,,serial #64,, and is in Connecticut while it's owner is in Florida,,but i'm not one to gossip.

original poster did make mention that the tuner is a well established in this field as well as being a top notch archer. in other owrds,,,he aint a ham and egger,,,he's tuned and set up tons of bows and did his share of kickin' "Edit" on the 3-d course and target shoots.

Good question as to what his bump is,,,,but it is probably whats causing this bow to need such a stout spine arrow in order to paper tune.

So that is why it is for sale last week Mike? Because a "well established tuner" screwed it up just in time for oldbuck to "test" it... Wow, the story just keeps getting better - both the for sale story and the knock travel story... Keep it going guys and maybe you'll be nominated for an Oscar :???:[/quote:2tcpa45h]
 

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Sorry to say, but this bow is way out of tune. I've talked to Hardcore, and if he is your definition of a pro-tuner, then John and Scottie must be apostles of Archery. Nock travel should be near zero in the vertical plane as evidenced by laser tuning by Kevin himself. Bump at end of draw is indicative of mis-timing in the draw stops. Hardcore has this bow so out of tune, I am guessing that it would take at least 3-4 full twists in the yoke and 1-2 untwists in the buss cable to get the cams back to where they need to be for level nock travel. Drawstops and let-off will of course have to be fully reset on a drawboard. IMO, quality strings do not allow for this kind of settling, someone would have had to seriously muck things up for a bow to get this bad.

Oldbuck, no offense to you, but if you are going to do tests on bows, please verify that they are in tune. This one is not. I know you know that the TT can't even work on this bow, so I see no advantage to you in testing this bow besides yours and ours curiousity, but someone has definitely wanted to see this bow fail.
 

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2011 K&K Vengance bow test results

Dameon said:
Sorry to say, but this bow is way out of tune. I've talked to Hardcore, and if he is your definition of a pro-tuner, then John and Scottie must be apostles of Archery. Nock travel should be near zero in the vertical plane as evidenced by laser tuning by Kevin himself. Bump at end of draw is indicative of mis-timing in the draw stops. Hardcore has this bow so out of tune, I am guessing that it would take at least 3-4 full twists in the yoke and 1-2 untwists in the buss cable to get the cams back to where they need to be for level nock travel. Drawstops and let-off will of course have to be fully reset on a drawboard. IMO, quality strings do not allow for this kind of settling, someone would have had to seriously muck things up for a bow to get this bad.

Oldbuck, no offense to you, but if you are going to do tests on bows, please verify that they are in tune. This one is not. I know you know that the TT can't even work on this bow, so I see no advantage to you in testing this bow besides yours and ours curiousity, but someone has definitely wanted to see this bow fail.
So spot on!!!! Fun to watch this stuff unfold. Agendas...
 

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Dameon said:
Sorry to say, but this bow is way out of tune. I've talked to Hardcore, and if he is your definition of a pro-tuner, then John and Scottie must be apostles of Archery. Nock travel should be near zero in the vertical plane as evidenced by laser tuning by Kevin himself. Bump at end of draw is indicative of mis-timing in the draw stops. Hardcore has this bow so out of tune, I am guessing that it would take at least 3-4 full twists in the yoke and 1-2 untwists in the buss cable to get the cams back to where they need to be for level nock travel. Drawstops and let-off will of course have to be fully reset on a drawboard. IMO, quality strings do not allow for this kind of settling, someone would have had to seriously muck things up for a bow to get this bad.

Oldbuck, no offense to you, but if you are going to do tests on bows, please verify that they are in tune. This one is not. I know you know that the TT can't even work on this bow, so I see no advantage to you in testing this bow besides yours and ours curiousity, but someone has definitely wanted to see this bow fail.
I just committed to buy this bow from Hardcore, Looks like I will have some fun tuning :cool:
 

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Tuning this bow should take less than an hour. From all accounts Hoppy, this particular Vengeance will have the cams set a little forward between the dots. Once the cam orientation is right, I bet the bumps in the lateral nock travel also disappear. Too bad this bow wasn't a lefty.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
How its tested

hyabusa78 said:
Could the bump somehow be attributed to the angled cable slide? Where was the nock point located at brace? Was it lined up with the bottom of the berger like recommended? Thanks for the test.
Hello all,
I test all the bows the same, I don't try and favor one bow or another with testing. I shoot Elites, Kevin Strothers designed those.
Vertical nock travel
The arrow is centered on the berger hole and set 90 degrees to the string. The cams are within factory spec of synchronization. The bow is mounted and the riser is clamped top & bottom. The bow is mechanically drawn and the plot pen lines are drawn by the bows nocking point travel in the direction of shooting. What you get is what the nocking travel is, no input from an archer, just a line drawn by the bow. Two lines are "drawn", one line at 90 degree angle from the string, this is a perfect "level" or perpendicular line to measure the bows nock travel from. The second line "drawn" is using a straight edge that bisects nock travel at two points, brace height and full draw. From this line I can measure how "straight" the nock point travel is.
There is no opinion with this way of testing.
Horizontal nock travel
I set the arrow to factory center shot dimension and through the center of berger hole. The bow is mechanically drawn and plot pen lines are drawn by the bows nocking point travel in the direction of shooting. . First with a stock cable guard, then without cable guard offset, then with my Tilt Tamer to see if I can improve the cam tilt and bow torque. All references are from the line drawn with no cable guard offset, this line represents the best nocking point travel this bow design can produce.
All notes are added by me after testing to identify the plots and what each line represents.
There is no opinion with this way of testing. I posted information about other bows on this forum, just do a search to find it.
It appears that some are taking machine test results as a personal affront, its not. More information is a good thing.
Thanks

oldbuck (Joe)
 

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Here is an opportunity to proof that the problem in not the design of the bow, but a simple tining issue. I would like to see Hoppy tune the bow, and send it back
to Oldbuck and compare the results between a out of tune bow, and an in tune bow. We could take up a collection for shipping if that is a concern.
There is a learning curve to tuning these bows. That is why I had Scotty tune my Vengeance. Last year I bought an Inspire. I was ready to wrap it around a tree.It would not bareshaft tune or broadhead tune. I sent it back to my dealer, and he called Crackers .Between the two of them the bow flat out shoots. There was a learning curve for my dealer. My Inspire was the first Strother bow he sold. He figured it out. And yes it can be frustrating.
 

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2011 K&K Vengance bow test results

Ionia said:
Here is an opportunity to proof that the problem in not the design of the bow, but a simple tining issue. I would like to see Hoppy tune the bow, and send it back
to Oldbuck and compare the results between a out of tune bow, and an in tune bow. We could take up a collection for shipping if that is a concern.
There is a learning curve to tuning these bows. That is why I had Scotty tune my Vengeance. Last year I bought an Inspire. I was ready to wrap it around a tree.It would not bareshaft tune or broadhead tune. I sent it back to my dealer, and he called Crackers .Between the two of them the bow flat out shoots. There was a learning curve for my dealer. My Inspire was the first Strother bow he sold. He figured it out. And yes it can be frustrating.
Do you know how he tuned your Inspire last year?
 

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I'll ask again lots of chatter, just wandering what other bows you will be testing this year? I'm just curious to see what those results will be compared to the centroid also. Thanks, Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Lets test another one...

Hello,
Its entirely possible that there was flaw with this one bow. I am willing to test another K&K Vengance if someone will send it to me shipping paid both ways.
I will donate the test time (about 2 hrs) and share the results with all. In fairness to K&K I hope this happens so we can all see what is going on with this bow.
please email me at [email protected] if you are interested.
Thanks
Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #37
hypo99 said:
I'll ask again lots of chatter, just wandering what other bows you will be testing this year? I'm just curious to see what those results will be compared to the centroid also. Thanks, Matt
Hello,
I already posted that info on this forum, I think a search will find it.
Thanks
Joe
 

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2011 K&K Vengance bow test results

sliverpicker said:
"Hardcore" as in "Hardcore Hunter"?
NO! As in Hardcore Archery
 

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Thanks Joe, interested to see what you find with more of the 2011 models. Again, thanks for your time, Matt
 

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-2xR- said:
[quote="Archery John Blaze":3jp7f7xw]I would venture to say the bow is a 70 pound ,,,right hand,,,28 draw,,,all balck,,,serial #64,, and is in Connecticut while it's owner is in Florida,,but i'm not one to gossip.

original poster did make mention that the tuner is a well established in this field as well as being a top notch archer. in other owrds,,,he aint a ham and egger,,,he's tuned and set up tons of bows and did his share of kickin' "Edit" on the 3-d course and target shoots.

Good question as to what his bump is,,,,but it is probably whats causing this bow to need such a stout spine arrow in order to paper tune.

So that is why it is for sale last week? Because a "well established tuner" screwed it up just in time for oldbuck to "test" it... Wow, the story just keeps getting better - both the for sale story and the knock travel story... Keep it going guys and maybe you'll be nominated for an Oscar :???:[/quote:3jp7f7xw]



I have to laugh at this. Let's talk real time here Scotti. I ,,,in blind faith buy this bow without ever seeing,holding,drawing or shooting it. Mainly because I liked ALL of what Kevin strother had designed in times past. I'm figuring this bow will look real hot like a Elite GTO and being it has a hybrid on it,,,there won't be any cease court orders affiliated with it and i can have a real nice bow.

Trust me,,,it breaks my heart to sell this bow,,,I ordered it the way I wanted it,,,all blacked out and 70 pounds. Not does it break my heart,,,it's costing me a few dollars too. i bought all brand new color coodinated top notch rest,and sight for this bow as well as a dozen Carbon Express Blue streak Select Arrows to accentuated the Blue highlights on this bow. Put all those together with my waiting time of ordering this bow,,,I think around October of 2010. Time to me is money as well.

I ship the bow to Connecticut to get tuned and set up in order to meet it there,,tweak it to me, as I fly up to hunt turkey in New York State with this bow,,,which is costing me enough as well.

So no where in this escapde do I in any shape way or form want to sell this bow ,,,especially for $625. i probably should keep it or trade it. I even sent you a e-mail asking you if you would trade me for something else,,,and you didn't even reply,,,,ecept to make some wise guy remarks of me putting on a actors job. Are you SERIOUS ??? Do people with agendas spend what I spend to prove a point ??? Come on. I got no problem with "K" bows,Kevin or anyone else in archery.

I do think this bow will tune,,,seriously. But it will do so with a .300 arrow which by weight,,,I don't care to shoot,,,so I prefer to to lay the bow off.

I really hope the fella from Michigan gets it driving tacks. For as far as I know,,,there is nothing wrong with the bow. Again,,,I never saw the bow,held the bow or shot the bow,,,but i do own the bow.

the fella who I placed in charge of doing the tuning on this bow,I know since he was 16-17 years old. the kid,,,now a grown man has done absolutely nothing but great things on every single one of my bows over the last 12-14 years if not even longer. Never has he failed to make a bow throw a broadhead the way I like,,,and i shoot fixed broadheads.

He in his heart and loyalty to me did all he could do to get this bow right for me. This I know,,,because I had other friends there who watched and observed. Do I think that maybe customer service phone line could have been helpful in order to help him wit this ??? Ofcourse,,,,however Kevin is on a restricted 3 day e-mail cycle,,,and I or he does not have anyway to contact him like maybe you might have.

As far as having the bow hitting properly in it's draw stops,,,I HAVE to believe he did because remember he is a Hoyt shooter with a cam and a half and has done my PSE X-Force which also is cam and a half. Not to mention he is a state tourney champ these last 2-3 years. Yes being he is a state champ doesn't mean he is a great tuner,,,but he was a great tuner long before he was a great shot. He was raised as a young man in a archery shop. The typical 12-14 year old kid who we all wish we had more of that gets grown up assisting a pro shop owner. I'm sure Scott you could use one of 2 kids like that,,,I know I could in my business.

this guy learned from the best in his area,,,granted for alot of years he was a single cam Mathews lover and was probably raised up as a kid setting them up for one of the largest Mathews dealers in New England. But he is no stranger to twin cams and hybrid cams as well as binary bowtech,strother and dartons,,,,he's done them too. matter a fact,,,I believe he worked or was part of a Strother franchise to boot. He knows Kevins designs and work thru maybe not Oregon bows,,,but surely Bowtech and Strother and Elite.

With each new bow,,,there very well could be new "discovery" to make these bows work more efficent. We had to work with what we had to work with. The box came with no instructions or tips from what i'm told. Actually the spare parts were not even in "bags" as i was told they were supposed to be. We didn't know if they ere mods or draw length adjusts because they were not identified. In fact,,,I was under the impression this bow had speed mods on it because I ordered it that way,,,,only to find out second had by someone here there were no speed mods available. K and K never made mention of this to me and I do not have time to follow online threads everynite. So I missed the boat on that.

The K and K website being inoperable probably didn't help either in that the interactivity between people like myself who bought bows direct had only a 3 day at best e-mail turn around as a way of communication. I understand Kevin was busy,,,,but as he was making bows,,,those of us who bought them are wanting to set them up and slay some hogs or turkey with them. It just didn't work for me in the end. The "custom bow" from a mom and pop after awhile wore off and I didn't like having to fend for answers without solutions. So I placed the bow up for sale. I honestly expected better customer interactive service then what was available,,,,but I understand kevin is one man,,,and he was slam busy,,,God bless him. Hope he does well with his business,,,,I might try another bow some other time,,,just not now.

In the end,,,i'm the loser in all this. Money and time and even effort. I don't appreciate your comments and your attitude because they are dead wrong. I aint no phony and i aint no "poser". I bought a bow blind faith and was having a problem that was easier solved by selling. i'll buy another bow when I get around to it,,,or keep shooting the fine bows i own now.

But don't call me a liar or a fake or an actor. You don't have the right to do so because you didn't spend what I spent. If you want to take shots at Hardcore,,,go for it,,,he's a big boy,,,maybe you could settle it out on a 3-d range or a paper shoot,,,???

i know you're a K and K archery dealer,,,and you need to "represent" because you make a living doing so,,,God bless you. I hope you are very successful in your endeavour doing so. I hope you get alot of happy shooters and buyers and make a nice living for you and your family,,,,just don't call me an actor. Actors don't lay down the money i laid down to cry wolf,,,I'm a businessman and don't have time for the games or the posturing,,,I got nothing to gain.
 
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